So tweeted academic Dr James Vaughan, of the International Politics Department at the University of Aberystwyth (a department founded, incidentally, by the distinguished scholar Sir Alfred Zimmern (1879-1957), the pro-Zionist son of a German Jewish father, and recognised as one of the very best such departments in the United Kingdom).
Dr Vaughan continued that the local newspaper, the Cambrian News, which advertised the gig (it took place on 9 February), seemed to be unaware of Atzmon's views when it wrote of the latter's "emerging political awareness" and that he'd enlighten them.
In its current issue (14 February, page 7) the Cambrian News reports:
'Aberystwyth University International Politics Professor James Vaughan said many people had concerns over Mr Atzmon's views, including those on the US Palestinian Community Network.
While Prof Vaughan insisted Mr Atzmon is entitled to criticise Israel and Israeli policy, he said there were concerns over his "obsessive fixations on Jewishness".
Prof Vaughan said he did not want to see Mr Atzmon stopped from performing, but wanted there to be a "broader awareness" about Mr Atzmon's views and how he is received by Palestinian activists."'To the best of my own knowledge, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) in the UK is squeamish about any hint of association with Atzmon and, not wishing to be associated with blatant anti-Jewish statements such as his, avoids recommending or linking to his anti-Israel diatribes.
This branch – of which, incidently the Aberystwyth Arts Centre (situated on the university campus) is a Twitter follower, a situation that I for one find eyebrow-raising since I should have thought a body like the Centre should not be seen to be partisan – has recently tweeted links to an article by Atzmon as well as one by ex-BBC man Alan Hart which contains, inter alia, the following pretty little piece of antisemitism:
"The Jews of the world are from MANY established or ancestral homelands, and almost all if not all of those who went to Palestine to give life to Zionism’s colonial enterprise had no biological connection whatsoever to the ancient Hebrews. The notion, still popular with the mainstream Western media, that at the root of the conflict there are two peoples each with a valid claim to the same land does not bear serious and honest examination. It’s more Zionist propaganda nonsense."Does the PSC command centre approve of its West Wales branch's tweets, I wonder? I think we should be told.
As for Atzmon, he's quoted by the Cambrian News as describing claims that he's antisemitic as "ludicrous and malicious":
"I am indeed an opponent of Israel, Zionism and also critical of the Jewish lobby within politics, media and finance ...."Rather an own goal, wouldn't you say?
And, in another British seaside resort, more antisemitism from the boycott brigade:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/102469/brighton-rocked-hate-slogans
"Aberystwyth PSC" - two men and a sheepdog
ReplyDeleteMore the distaff side, actually!
DeleteSheepdogs are useful. No self respecting sheepdog would be seen dead in such company.
Deletethis site used to have stuff on rogue PSC branches, don't know what happened to it, it was useful
ReplyDeleteexposingantisemitism.blogspot.com/
I've never seen it before, Anon. I wonder why the blog is discontinued.
Deletebtw, Reading PSC (which hosts the Aberustwyth PSC on its page) really should stop linking to the antisemitic Redress website, and I'm surprised at PSC branch members having truck with Stuart Littlewood:
http://www.deliberation.info/erasing-palestine/
Good blog, but I personally can't see how it's 'antisemitic' to criticise Israel's policies of ethnic cleansing and apartheid myself.
ReplyDeleteAny reference by Atzmon to Hitler possibly being right is clearly unacceptable and just plain wrong.
Historically, the most genuinely antisemitic group - the far right - are now increasingly allying with Israel in their shared hatred of Islam. Surely the problem is hatred of any religious group, no?
It's funny how we humans create concepts and then kill other humans who have different concepts
Or are Jews more equal than others and thus merit better treatment than Muslims - and Hindus, Buddhists, Christians etc?
“I personally can't see how it's 'antisemitic' to criticise Israel's policies of ethnic cleansing and apartheid myself.”
DeleteThe EU definition of antisemitism is
“When Israel is singled out for criticism above all States in the ME. That is antisemitism”
I find it rather hypocritical that you choose to single out Israel, when She is the only democratic country in the ME. I won’t list them, I’m sure you are able to work that one out in your head.
“Any reference by Atzmon to Hitler possibly being right is clearly unacceptable and just plain wrong.”
My opinion is the same as that of Dr James Vaughan, of the International Politics Department at the University of Aberystwyth. I would suggest you ask him. You have him close a hand.
“Historically, the most genuinely antisemitic group - the far right” They are not in the least far right. You have a skewed conspecption of that.
I presume by the 'far right' you are saying the Q Society and the EDL?
You forget the far left, a well-known fact that they are very antisemitic. The BDS will give you a clear indication of that fact.
“the far right are now increasingly allying with Israel in their shared hatred of Islam.”
Israel hates Islam? Do you have rocks for brains with such a question.?
People are not allying with Israel as such, they see that Israel has more right to exist than many of the other States in the ME. Historically definitely so.
Israel is a very small Democratic State, which occupies one sixth of 1% of the entire Middle East, it’s barely 1/3rd of the size of Tasmania and is the only beacon of democracy in the ME
It enshrines freedom of speech, a free press and a State whose citizens live under the rule of law.
It’s the only State in the ME, where people of all religions can practice their faith freely and openly.
It’s the only State in the ME, where homosexuals are free to live without fear of persecution, or indeed execution.
It is the only State in the ME which resembles our own values and with whom Australia has long stood side by side, as a friend and ally
“Or are Jews more equal than others and thus merit better treatment than Muslims - and Hindus, Buddhists, Christians etc?”
That I won’t qualify with an answer.
What a well designed site!
ReplyDeleteIt is a shame that it is full of Gobbledegook and Propaganda!
I mean……come on, the statement ‘We offer peace and amity to all the neighbouring states and their peoples’ is corrupt!
For Israel does not even recognise its nearest neighbour Palestine! It just occupies it and oppresses its people!
And as for ‘Western values’ Wow…yes we’ve seen them regularly used in military occupied Palestine! Shooting kids…..closing access at ‘Check points’ ……..destroying buildings…diverting water supplies....extending illegal ‘settlements’!
I won’t bother mentioning the Jewish terrorists [some who became Prime Ministers of Israel] that helped drive out the indigenous people of the land-The Palestinians!
Yours
From another seaside Town citizen who has seen through the Zionist propaganda!- Barry M. Watson-Scarborough
Dear Bazza,
DeleteIt's a real shame I have to say this, but I think you need to talk to your country's leaders regarding the money that is being spent on education.
As getting anything out of politicians can be time consuming, let me start your educational process.
The word "indigenous" is a very very poor word to describe anyone currently alive in Europe the Middle East or North Africa. Indigenous tends to lend itself to many definitions but it requires tribal land claim, a historic ethnic connection to the land, etc...
There are other things, but here's the deal: there is no "P" in Arabic. But there is in Latin and when the Romans named the region "Palaestina" after they conquered it from the Jewish Kingdoms of Israel and Judea - they did so to break the Jewish connection to their nations.
At this point, nobody had ever heard of Palestine as a nation of Arabs or even Islam because Islam had not yet been invented.
When the Romans named it Palaestina, it wasn't just that name - it was the aggregate name.
There were four Palaestinas:
- Syria Palaestina: established through the merger of Roman-captured Syria and Roman-captured Jewish Kingdom of Judea
- Palaestina Prima contained all of the captured Kingdom of Israel, parts of the captured Kingdom of Judea. Famous captured Jewish towns are Hebron, Yerushalaim (Jerusalem), Be'er Sheva, Yafo, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Azza, a Jewish village that is now called Gaza City.
- Palaestina Seconda which encompassed Galilea - a region of the Jewish captured Kingdoms you would now know as North-Eastern Israel, the West Bank and Jordan.
- Palaestina Salutaris which was a Byzantine region that extended South from the Sinai and Negev.
These regions existed under Roman rule until the Muslim Arab conquests of the 7th Century AD. Until then, you could barely smell an Arab there. It was Jews, Hellenic Greeks, Armenians, Medians Assyrians, Persians and Jews.
Yes it's true that Israel has ethnically cleansed indigenous people from their land - when in 2005 they forcefully removed every Jew from a region of Palaestina Prima, or Gaza.
But they have never removed an indigenous inhabitant of any Palestinian quasi-nationality because they are not indigenous. They can't even pronounce the name given to the region because their language lacks the Roman/Latin sound of "P" like European languages have.
Second, Israel is under no obligation to recognise Palestine. Plenty of states don't recognise Israel. And plenty of other states don't recognise other states.
Thirdly, oppressing who? Israel guards the Gaza border. Precisely 5% of West Bank Palestinians live under Israeli rule. 99% of all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank combined live entirely under the rule of Hamas or Fateh. If you want to know why their journalists are getting arrested for speaking out, why they're being tortured in Hamas and Fateh prisons, why young men are immolating themselves at Hamas political HQs, why gender apartheid against women is practised in Gaza and why Palestinians are being executed by the state through laws rammed through their "parliament" illegally according to their own conventions - you're best of speaking to the Palestinian leadership structure, not Israel.
Fourthly, Jewish terrorists who became Prime Ministers? Yeah sure. Some pretty awful people became Prime Ministers of Israel. For example Ariel Sharon carried indirect responsibility for what Lebanese Arabs did to the Palestinian refugees. As a Prime Minister he gave back Palestinian land in the hope that it might make the Palestinians more amenable to negotiations. It didn't.
The Palestinians hate Jews more than they want land, and because of this they shot themselves in the foot. no Israeli, Arabs included, actually trusts Palestinian goodwill. Not once have the Palestinians done something to further or encourage peace talks to terminate a war that they started by informally allying with the Nazis in WWII.
I'll leave you with this very simple logic thought: the Palestinians say they want peace and their land back and to stop their people dying. Ignore the fact that it's not their land until there's a national border, but have a think about it:
Delete1st Intifada death ratios: 10:1
2nd Intifada death ratios: 20:1
Now they're talking about a third intifada even though they know that every time they lose Palestinian lives.
Their leaders call for these intifadas. How much do they care about Palestinian lives?
In answer to Monica Banerjee
ReplyDeleteThe far right is still antisemitic. The far left has been historically antisemitic since Marx, identifying Jews with capitalism and bourgeois liberalism, and therefore "the enemy of the people" ( clearly a vile antisemitic notion and in line with Atzmon's odious remark about the "Jewish lobby in politics, media and finance)
Atzmon should be prosecuted, not invited as speaker by some community group. Don't you have anti-hate and vilification laws in your country?
Use them for your own sakes. Start with Atzmon.
This is not about "hatred of Islam" let alone Muslims. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Muslims enjoy full civil rights. The incessant chant that "Israel is an apartheid state" is a racist lie. So is the allegation of ethnic cleansing.
Two racist lies in one sentence. You have sucked in antisemitism so deeply into your bones who can't see it for yourself. It has become part of you.
In answer to Barry M. Double Barrel-Dickhead.
Congratulations , you have just earned your own post on my blog. Daphne prefers the conversation here remains civil. I think what I have to say about you may impose on that standard.
http://geofffff.blogspot.com.au/
Monica Banerjee, stating that Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing and apartheid is antisemitic, insofar as it accepts the lies of the Jew-hating enemies of the Jewish state as fact. One only needs to see how many Arabs were left inside Israel to see that there was no "ethnic cleansing". One only has to note that there are no discriminatory laws against Arabs and that there are Arab parliamentarians, judges and police to see that there is no apartheid in Israel.
ReplyDeleteWhere youu get the idea that Israel is affiliating with the exterme right I do not know.How you conclude that Israel hates Muslims is a mystery; when there is a "price-tag" attack by Jewish extremists, MKs and rabbis offer apologies. But you are right, there is religious hatred, but on the part of those who call Jews the sons of pigs and apes.
Jew are no more equal than any other people. The problem is that there are far to many people - like yourself, I suspect - who cannot stomach the notion that the post Holocaust Jew insist on being treated as an equal.
Anon, Israel does offer peace and amity to its neighbours; it even offered top retreat to the Green Line in 1967 in exchange for peace. The Khartoum declaration's 3 NOs - no peace, no recognition, no negotiations - kept the Jewish/Muslim conflict going.
"Palestine" is not Israel's nearest neighbour, because it does not exist. Israel kicked out Jordan, the invader of Judea and Samaria, but allowed the Arabs there to stay. In its 19 year occupation, Jordan never offered those Arabs independence, for the very good reason that there is no such thing a a "Palestinian"; that people were invented by the KGB in 1964 and presented on the world stage in 1967.
Tje Arabs in Judea/Samaria are oppressed by their own kleptocrats and thuggish security forces. 95% of them live in a few cities in Area A and have self-rule since 1995.
Israel is not an occupier. It is entitled to territory if gained in a defensive war in 1967. It undertook to accept some of the provisions of an occupier, but the Arabs have yet to become self-governing, self-sufficient, peaceful or to recognise Israel as the state of the Jewish people. Moreover, they are breaking the terms of UNSC 242 and Oslo 2 by refusing to negotiate; there is no negotiating when the vanquished demands unconditional surrender by the victor.
Your comments about Israeli atrocities and war crimes are mere regurgitations of Arab propaganda. Kids take liberties with the IDF and people like you shjould be asking questions about the Arab parents' responsibilies. Settlements have not expanded, but building within them continues; if it does not they die - but you would not mind that. And the Arabs steal water from Israel's national water carrier and pollute ground water by refusing Israel' offer to lay sewer pipes.
The Jews who faught the Brits were freedom fighters. They never went to the UK to shoot people. Nor did they harm civilians despite the Brit's perfidy in allowing the Nazi collaborator Haj amin Husseini to go to Egypt and in repaying Jewish volunteers in the Brit's army by slapping a restriction on Jewish immigration to its mandate, just to appease its erstwhile Nazi supporting populations.
Facts are much better than facts, mate.
Part One
ReplyDelete“I mean……come on, the statement ‘We offer peace and amity to all the neighbouring states and their peoples’ is corrupt!”
You had better do some reading and not rely on the propaganda you are spoon fed
If Israel is such a bad country which you demonise, why do you think on Dec 23rd 2003, She offered help to Iran in response to the massive earthquake and was the first, nearest and best equipped to do so?
Why did Iran refuse that help? Does their vile unjustified hatred transcend saving their own people, in a disaster in which at least 10,000 were killed and tens of thousands were reported missing.
Why was Israel the first country to set up a field hospital in Haiti, when other countries were only just thinking about it. This scenario in repeated in any country in all disasters ad infinitum.
“For Israel does not even recognise its nearest neighbour Palestine! It just occupies it and oppresses its people!"
Oh boy, another one eyed person.!”
Have you been there or are you once again just believing the propaganda hand fed to you by your loony left friends?
Recognise Palestine?
Israel is in Palestine, as is Jordan 78% of it, by the way. Gaza, Judea and Samaria are too.
Are you are you per chance referring to the Palestinian Arabs who live in Gaza, Judea and Samaria who have consistently refused to talk peace and have a country complete with borders and who prefer war?
Those same Arabs who in 1948 chose to go to war rather than accept the UN’s decision to partition Palestine between its Jewish and Arab populations when five States attacked the fledgling State of Israel and were well and truly vanquished.?
Those same Arabs who in 1967 who refused Israel’s offered to relinquish the land it had acquired in exchange for peace with its neighbours.?
The Arab world’s response to that, which was issued at a summit in Khartoum, was not one no, but three NOs:
“No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel.’’
Those same Arabs who in 2000 at Camp David refused a sovereign state with shared control of Jerusalem and billions of dollars in compensation for Palestinian refugees. Yasser Arafat returned to launch the deadly terror war known as the Second Intifada.?
Those same Arabs who in 2008 when Ehud Olmert offered Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas a peace agreement that would have guaranteed a Palestinian state in virtually all the West Bank, Gaza, and part of Jerusalem, with more land to compensate that already settled.?
Once again, the Palestinians turned down the offer.
"And as for ‘Western values’ Wow…yes we’ve seen them regularly used in military occupied Palestine! "
I am still trying to work out where Israel is militarily occupying the fictitious country of Palestine.?
If you are referring to Gaza, who are way of the mark.
Part TWO
ReplyDeleteIsrael unilaterally and completely withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005. As part of this they uprooted and relocated all Jewish settlers back within its borders, providing compensation for their trouble. They also dismantled and demolished all residential buildings which previously belonged to Jews in the region. The Arabs then burned and demolished all the synagogues.
Israel left a massive amount of industrial and agricultural equipment and facilities for the local Palestinian population, which proceeded to immediately destroy this gesture of economic goodwill.
The remaining “occupied territories” under question are those in the West Bank which are under the essentially autonomous control of the more mainstream Palestinian Authority and, surprise, surprise, is not the source of the rocket fire.
As a quick aside, Israel actually provides more aid to Gazans than its own government. Israel is also the largest funder to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria.
After Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza and then after attacks countless attacks and deaths caused by from suicide bombers and rockets attacks had to build a wall around Herself for protection.
FYI - Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005 until the start of the last offensive, terrorists have fired more than 8,000 rockets into Israel.
“Shooting kids”
Stop believing lies. During the last offensive Gazan children went to Israel for brain and heart surgery and any other ongoing treatments. Shocking cruel heartless people the Israelis aren’t they?
“closing access at ‘Check points’ “
Only like last week after the rockets and the ceasefire was yet again broken. Though this is the longest time since 2005 there have been no rockets.
"……..destroying buildings…diverting water supplies....extending illegal ‘settlements’!"
Too much to go into but all very wrong
As to terrorist Arab leaders I could name many. Arafat ring any bells??
Israel has been equally clear in its insistence and commitment to peace. The only thing it has ever requested is the right to safety within its borders for its people, and for proper recognition from its neighbours.
If only people were as quick to research the history of Israel and the conflict, as they are to take the irrational side of the equation.
Dear Daphne,
ReplyDeleteCongratulations on being co-winner of the Best Pro-Israel Blog, Hasby Awards, 2013! Your win is well-deserved, as your blog is really superb to look at. I just wonder what magic spectacles enable someone in Australia to hone in on a few old women (the membership of AberPSC) chatting over coffee in the Arts Centre in distant Aberystwyth - and why she should care.
Best wishes,
Elizabeth Morley
Secretary AberPSC
Thank you, Elizabeth. This blog's not just confined to Australia - it goes hither and thither.
DeleteI notice that on its current Twitter page your branch has linked to an article on the redress website - the redress website is antisemitic and I was told a while back by a contact in London who belongs to JfJfP that th PSC disapproves of members linking to it sine it's regarded as antisemitic, so am sorry to see you have.
Pardon the typos - in haste!
Delete1)
ReplyDeleteTo the courageous defenders of Israeli aggression who fear to identify themselves, I say only this: repeating lies endlessly doesn't make them true.
Why don't you choose to inform yourselves - or perhaps you choose not to - by reading Miko Peled's book The General's Son or see him on YouTube at www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ.
This is not and has never been an equal struggle. It is an occupation by a powerful military state, armed and supported by the West, against an impoverished, stateless and displaced people.
To the joker who refers to Palestinians unable to say the P sound, may I point out that this is an irrelevance as it's the F sound - Falastin - that the indigenous people use. You rather arrogantly question linguistic heritage and see the world through a European lens.
Arafat was willing to make concessions, he was willing to concede 80% of historic Palestine for a mere 20% and relinquish the Palestinians' right of return, in exchange for peace - Israel refused to entertain the idea of concessions.
As long as Palestinians are denied freedom, hope, water, homes and as long as One Rule of Law For All doesn't apply to all, injustice will prevail and your conscience will be troubled somewhere very deep down.
And lastly why is it that any criticism of allegedly democratic Israeli policy is immediately slapped down as antisemitic? Surely if it were truly a democracy, criticism would not be a problem? When there's an entire bureaucracy given over to making Palestinian lives a misery, you see only what you choose to see*. The people Israel rules over in the West Bank have no rights, as Israel chooses to follow some international laws (self-government - in name at least) for an occupied population) but ignore others (explicitly prohibited from transferring civilian populations to territory acquired by war). Palestinian civilians are governed by military law but Israelis in Area A, B and C are governed by civil law.
Calling people who don't accept Israeli transgressions antisemitic is a pathetic tool used as an excuse for refusing to answer questions like why 100 ton bombs were dropped on a densely populated civilian area, why Palestinian children get less water than Israeli children, when children and adults are torn from their beds and detained under administrative detention etc. The real issues here are being ignored in order to smear your enemies and make them part of a hated group in a bid to silence their voices. Perhaps it's those troubled consciences again.
Nobody chooses to give up their privilege voluntarily; those who speak up for Palestinian human rights seek to empower ALL people regardless of their religion or origins, not to maintain privilege for a chosen few.
Let's make way for the predictable personal attacks now, shall we?
1.
DeleteIf you like it dahling, I'd be more than happy to attack you personally, if I thought for one moment it might help your blindness to the truth.
Let's not go there with Miko Peled. He can be lumped in with other self-hating Jews. Lowenstein, Finklestein, Sands and more. Though even Finkelstein doesn't support the racist BDS actions.
This couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.
"This is not and has never been an equal struggle. It is an occupation by a powerful military state, armed and supported by the West, against an impoverished, stateless and displaced people."
How wrong can one person be?
In 1948 when Israel declared the State of Israel, the Arabs refused to do likewise. Instead, the armies of 5 Arab countries, after urging its 'brothers' to "flee with the promise of a swift return once the Zionist entity had been annihilated", attacked the fledgling State of Israel and were soundly defeated.
Now this has been well documented, EVEN in the Arab media.
1948 - Palestinian journalist describes Arab leaders action in 1948:
"To the [Arab] Kings and Presidents: Poverty is killing us... yet you are still searching for the way to provide aid... like the armies of your predecessors in the year of 1948, who forced us to leave [Israel], on the pretext of clearing the battlefields of civilians... " [Fuad Abu Higla, columnist official PA daily Al Hayat Al Jadida, in an article before an Arab Summit, critical of Arab leaders for a series of failures. Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah, March 19, 2001]
"The Arab exodus from other villages were not caused by actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by Arab leaders to encourage the other Arab nations to fight the Jews." Yunes Ahmed Assad, A survivor of the Deir Yassin massacre, Al Urdun, 1948
“We said, ‘There was no rape.’ He said ‘We have to say this so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews.’ Abu Mahmoud
"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the actions of the Arab states, in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed to this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem." Emile Ghoury, an Arab commander and Palestine High Committee secretary, the Beirut Daily Telegraph 1948.
“The Arab states, which had encouraged the Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.” The Jordanian daily paper Falastin, Feb 19th, 1949
2.
Deletehttp://joshuapundit.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/abbas-lies-contradicted-from-his-own.html
Pravda-on-the-Hudson recently published an op-ed written by Mahmoud Abbas, the unelected president of the Palestinian Authority. Well,not by him, but by a functionary like one of the 'Palestinian's ' American PR experts or US ex-diplomat Edward Abington, who lobbies for the 'Palestinian' Authority.
In the op-ed, he claims that he was forced to flee as a thirteen-year-old from Tzfat (Safed) in what is now Israel in 1948 and was made to live in a tent city in Syria as a poor refugee. He further claims the Palestinians were victims of what he refers to as 'our expulsion' and that 'Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs to ensure a decisive Jewish majority in the future state of Israel,which was why 'Arab armies intervened. War and further expulsions ensued.'
What's unusual here is not only that this is a blatant falsehood, but that it was contradicted publicly by Abbas himself!
The Wall Street Journal in 2003 made reference to an article penned by Abbas (AKA Abu Mazen) in an article entitled “Abu Mazen Charges that the Arab States are the Cause of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" ( emphasis mine) :
"Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) wrote an article in March 1976 in Falastin al-Thawra, the official journal of the PLO in Beirut: ‘The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny, but instead they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe.’”
Not only that, but in an interview with Al-Palestinia TV in 2009, Abbas admitted that his family was not expelled or driven out, but rather left voluntarily out of fear that the Jews might take revenge for the slaughter of 20 Jews in the city during the Arab pogroms of 19 years earlier:
“I am among those who were born in the city of Tzfat (Safed). We were a family of means. I studied in elementary school, and then came the naqba [calamity, namely, the founding of the State of Israel – ed.]. At night, we left by foot from Tzfat, to the Jordan River, where we remained for a month. Then we went to Damascus, and then to our relatives in Jordan, and then we settled in Damascus.
“My father had money, and he spent his money systematically, and after a year, the money ran out and we began to work.
So much for those moving claims of being reduced to living in a tent as a poverty stricken refugee.
As always, there's lots more of this sort of thing easily found:
Jordan Daily Newspaper Falastin 19 February 1949:
The Arab states which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.
Cairo Daily Newspaper Akhbar El-Yom 12 October 1963:
May 15 1948 arrived; on that very day the Mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead.
There is plenty more
3.
DeleteMonica, you are in la-la land if you think that Arafat was willing to make concessions. That's the best laugh I have had in years. maybe you'd like links the places where the money he stole from the Arabs is stashed away.
Like the Arabs of the region he came from elsewhere. He came, like so many from Egypt. Again there is evidence everywhere on that score. One of the most common names in Israel, Gaza, Judea and the Samaria is Al Masri, which is the Egyptian equivalent of Smith or Jones.
Arafat created modern terror, promoting air hijacking and suicide bombing, and inspiring many others including, no doubt, the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. He committed monstrous crimes not just against Israelis and others, but against his own people.
In an interview he did with Christiane Amanpour he said he would never agree to peace because that would be betraying his people. Which in itself is a joke as he wasn't an Arab.
I can't go on here, you have such twisted and warped ideas of the truth, it's beyond funny and I don't have the time to 'sort you out'
As to your comment about people posting anonymously.
1. Many people are not registered
2.You obviously don't blog much, as many people either give no name or give a fictitious one.
Who's to know if Monica Banerjee is a real name.?
2)
ReplyDelete*Specific racism in Israel:
• Section of 5 in the Law of Political Parties and section 7A of the Basic Law: Stipulates that any party platform that calls for full and complete equality between Jews and non-Jews, can be disqualified from any political post. The law demands that Palestinian Arab citizens may not challenge the state's Zionist identity.
• Law of Return: “Every Jew has the right to become a citizen no matter where they come from” while the indigenous non-Jewish inhabitants who were expelled in 1948 are expressly barred from returning to their homes
• Nakba Law: Penalises any institution that commemorates or publicly mourns the expulsion of the native Palestinian population
• Anti-boycott law: Provides anyone calling for the boycott of Israel, or it’s illegal settlements, can be sued by the boycott's targets without having to prove that they sustained damage. The court will then decide how much compensation is to be paid.
• Admission Committees Law formally allows neighbourhood screening committees to prevent non-Jewish citizens from living in Jewish communities that control 81 percent of the territory in Israel. In March 2011 Israel passed a law to allow residents of Jewish towns to refuse non Jews from living in their communities.
• Amendment to the Citizenship Law: Stipulates that an Israeli citizen who marries a Palestinian cannot live as a couple in Israel with his or her spouse. A Palestinian spouse can neither gain citizenship nor residency.
• 93% of the land, the vast majority of which was confiscated from Palestinian owners after 1948, can only be owned by Jewish agencies for the benefit of Jews only. One of these agencies is the Jewish National Fund, which, in its charter forbids sale or lease to non-Jews.
• Specified Goods Tax and Luxury Tax Law [art 26, Laws of the State of Israel, vol. 6, p. 150 (1952)] Authorises lower import taxes for Jewish citizens of Israel compared with non-Jewish citizens of Israel.
• National Planning and Building Law (1965) Through various zoning laws freezes the growth of existing Arab villages while providing for the expansion Jewish settlements and creation of new ones. The law also re-classifies a large portion of established Arab villages as "unrecognised” and therefore nonexistent, allowing the state to cut off water and electricity as well as to simply appropriate that property.
• Appropriations are carried out under The Requisitions Law which allows a “competent authority” to requisition the land – called “land requisition order” – so that only he may “use and exploit the land” as he sees fit. This applies to “home requisition orders” as well, whereby another “competent authority” who can “order the occupier of a house to surrender the house to the control of a person specified in the order, for residential purposes or for any other use, as may be prescribed in the order. “
OK Monica, I'm giving you the option. Choose - you're either
Delete- stupid
- anti-semite
Which are you?
[Section of 5 in the Law of Political Parties and section 7A of the Basic Law: Stipulates that any party platform that calls for full and complete equality between Jews and non-Jews, can be disqualified from any political post. The law demands that Palestinian Arab citizens may not challenge the state's Zionist identity.]
There is no "Basic Law". There are 11 Basic Laws and only two of them have section 7A:
Basic Law - Human Dignity and Liberty - 17 Mar 1992
[7. (a) All persons have the right to privacy and to intimacy.]
and
Basic Law: The Government (2001) - 7 Mar 2001
[7. (a) When a new Government has to be constituted, the President of the State shall, after consultation with representatives of party groups in the Knesset, assign the task of forming a Government to a Knesset Member who has notified him that he is prepared to accept the task; the President shall do so within seven days of the publication of the election results, or should the need arise to form a new government; and in the case of the death of the Prime Minister, within 14 days of his death.]
The 2001 Law above replaced a 1992 Law which has no 7A.
I repeat my statement: Choose - you're either
- stupid
- anti-semite
[Law of Return: “Every Jew has the right to become a citizen no matter where they come from” while the indigenous non-Jewish inhabitants who were expelled in 1948 are expressly barred from returning to their homes]
DeleteNot every Jew has a right to become a citizen. The La of Return specifies anyone who has at minimum one Jewish grandparent, qualifies for ethnic repatriation. This means non-Jews qualify under the law. Furthermore, this Law is not the only means. Palestinians evicted by Arab armies are able to naturalise as Israeli citizens if they go through the procedures all non-Jewish residents of Israel do.
Also, Israel's Law of Return, among the dozens of other far more unfair Laws of Return, is expressely bound to UNGA Resolution 2106 which stipulates:
[Special measures taken for the sole purpose of securing adequate advancement of certain racial or ethnic groups or individuals requiring such protection as may be necessary in order to ensure such groups or individuals equal enjoyment or exercise of human rights and fundamental freedoms shall not be deemed racial discrimination, provided, however, that such measures do not, as a consequence, lead to the maintenance of separate rights for different racial groups and that they shall not be continued after the objectives for which they were taken to have been achieved.]
Israel's Law of Return was based on the categorization of Jews as an ethnic people by Hitler and other governments world-wide who had oppressed the Jews. By limiting Jewish migration to those that had the potential, or were discriminated against, Israel bound itself to that resolution.
I ask you again Monica - are you stupid or an anti-semite?
[Nakba Law: Penalises any institution that commemorates or publicly mourns the expulsion of the native Palestinian population]
DeleteNo it doesn't.
[A body which is budgeted (ie, a state-sponsored body) or supported according to clause 21, or a public institution supported according to clause 3a shall not incur expenses in order to engage in activities which involve --
a) 1) the rejection of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish nation; 2) the rejection of the democratic character of the state; 3) support for armed struggle or acts of terror, of an enemy or terror organization, against Israel; 4) incitement to racism, violence, or terror; 5) dishonoring of the national flag or national symbol; In this sub-section, "expense" -- includes waiving income. (b) If the Finance Minister sees that a state budgeted or supported body does not abide by this clause, he is entitled to withhold funds from the state budget that are supposed to be transferred to the said body . . .]
Israel should be under no obligation to fund organisations that want to terminate it as a state.
Palestinian or pro-Palestinian organisations are free to mourn the eviction of Palestinians.
I repeat again - are you stupid, or an anti-semite?
[Anti-boycott law: Provides anyone calling for the boycott of Israel, or it’s illegal settlements, can be sued by the boycott's targets without having to prove that they sustained damage. The court will then decide how much compensation is to be paid.]
DeleteSorry Monica, that's not a law. It's been frozen as of December 10 by the Supreme Court of Israel as being undemocratic.
The government has until March 14 to submit to the court why they should not strike it down.
Once again - are you stupid, or an anti-semite?
[Admission Committees Law formally allows neighbourhood screening committees to prevent non-Jewish citizens from living in Jewish communities that control 81 percent of the territory in Israel. In March 2011 Israel passed a law to allow residents of Jewish towns to refuse non Jews from living in their communities.]
DeleteAlso not a law. Held up in Supreme Court in June 2011.
The government filed it's answer in Jan 2012.
Nothing since. But it's not an active law.
I ask again - are you stupid or an anti-semite?
[Amendment to the Citizenship Law: Stipulates that an Israeli citizen who marries a Palestinian cannot live as a couple in Israel with his or her spouse. A Palestinian spouse can neither gain citizenship nor residency.]
DeleteThe law stipulates no such thing - not that black and white anyway.
The law affects only Israeli men under thirty-five years of age and Israeli women under twenty-five, and exempts children if their parents live legally in Israel.
This is also not a unique law. Germany, USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil and the UK all have "enemy alien" laws - should the USA choose to do so, they could prevent Iraqis from obtaining citizenship in America.
Again - are you stupid, or anti-semitic?
[93% of the land, the vast majority of which was confiscated from Palestinian owners after 1948, can only be owned by Jewish agencies for the benefit of Jews only. One of these agencies is the Jewish National Fund, which, in its charter forbids sale or lease to non-Jews.]
DeleteThat's just blatantly incorrect.
93% of the land in Israel is owned by the ILA - the Israel Land Administration. 13% of that total belongs to the JNF.
The JNF bought every bit of that land using money donated by Jews. It is a private organisation.
Being a private organisation, and using the same laws that apply in every other democracy - Israel could force JNF to sell to Arabs, which they did in 2004, but they could not confiscate private land for government purpose - which is against the law.
So they made a deal whereby for every bit of land the JNF sold to the government for Arab settlement, the government would compensate with an equal transfer of land back to the JNF.
In other words, Arabs can build on any percent of the 93% of public land in Israel.
[Specified Goods Tax and Luxury Tax Law [art 26, Laws of the State of Israel, vol. 6, p. 150 (1952)] Authorises lower import taxes for Jewish citizens of Israel compared with non-Jewish citizens of Israel.]
DeleteYou got your list of "apartheid laws" from John Spitzer's article on newdemocracy, a Marxist totalitarian site. He got his information from John B Quigley's book "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice" published in 1994, which makes a similar point which has been laughed out of popular discussion on account of being so terribly wrong.
He raises the point that the minister for immigration is allowed to discriminate based on status of the person.
A resident of Israel can bring in less imported goods than a citizen of Israel.
Nothing racist about it - a Jewish permanent resident of Israel can bring in the same amount as an Arab resident of Israel and both can bring in less than a Druze citizen of Israel.
It's about citizenship status - not religion or race or ethnicity.
Again - stupid or anti-semitic?
[National Planning and Building Law (1965) Through various zoning laws freezes the growth of existing Arab villages while providing for the expansion Jewish settlements and creation of new ones. The law also re-classifies a large portion of established Arab villages as "unrecognised” and therefore nonexistent, allowing the state to cut off water and electricity as well as to simply appropriate that property.]
DeletePartly true but entirely out of context. Travel through Israel, and you'll travel through desert after desert after desert and then suddenly in the middle of nowhere you have a trailer park piggy-backing off electric wires.
These are illegal Bedouin settlements that form in the middle of nowhere and disappear in a month and then expect support from a state they've not notified about their requirements.
Hence no support, and zoning laws.
Again - stupid or anti-semitic?
[Appropriations are carried out under The Requisitions Law which allows a “competent authority” to requisition the land – called “land requisition order” – so that only he may “use and exploit the land” as he sees fit. This applies to “home requisition orders” as well, whereby another “competent authority” who can “order the occupier of a house to surrender the house to the control of a person specified in the order, for residential purposes or for any other use, as may be prescribed in the order. “]
DeleteWe have the same laws in Australia.
3)
ReplyDelete• In the education sector within Israel, as an example, the state spends $192 per year per non-Jewish student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student.
• There is a planned Mosque Law that will prohibit the broadcasting of the Muslim call to prayer, which has been sounding over that land since the beginning of Islam.
• Non-Jews living in the West Bank are denied access to the holy places of Jerusalem, which are only a few kilometres away from them.
• ALSO, for the first time in the history of Islam and the history of Christianity, Palestinian Muslims and Christians in the West Bank and Gaza are denied access to their holy Places of Jerusalem, even on the high holy days of Eid, Christmas, and Easter Sunday.
• Since Israel took the West Bank, the Christian population has declined from 20,000 in 1967 to less than 7500 today.
• Military Order #1229: authorises Israel to hold Palestinians in administrative detention for up to six months without charge or trial. Six-month detentions can be renewed indefinitely, without charge or trial.
• Military Orders #329 and 1650 effectively prevents Palestinians from being anywhere in the West Bank without a specific permit to be there, making it a criminal offence to go from one Palestinian town to another.
• Military Orders #92 and #158: gives the Israeli military control of all water resources in the West Bank, which belongs to Palestinians.
• Israel then allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, while unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies creating a reality of green lawns and swimming pools for Jewish settlers and a parched life for Palestinians, whose access to water, according to the World Health Organisation does not meet the minimum requirements for basic human water needs.
• Furthermore, that fraction of confiscated Palestinian water is sold to Palestinians at 300% more than what it costs Jewish settlers in the same area. ($1.20/cubic meter vs $.40/cubic meter).
• Military Orders #811 and #847: Allows Jews to purchase land from unwilling Palestinian sellers by using “power of attorney”.
• Military Orders #25: forbids public inspection of land transactions.
• Military Order #998: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to make a withdrawal from their bank account.
• Military Order #128: gives the Israeli military the right to take over any Palestinian business which is not open during regular business hours.
• Military Orders #138 & #134: forbids Palestinians from operating tractors or other heavy farm machinery on their land.
•Military Order #93: gives all Palestinian insurance businesses to the Israeli Insurance Syndicate.
• Military Order # 1015: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to plant and grow fruit trees. This permit expires every year.
• Through various military orders, according to the WHO, Israel has uprooted 2.5 million trees belonging to Palestinians, and which often represent their only means of sustenance.
[In the education sector within Israel, as an example, the state spends $192 per year per non-Jewish student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student.]
ReplyDeleteDon't know anything about that one - that may well be true however I will point out the following - you got that from wiki - you forgot the bit where it said [verification needed].
Their only piece of evidence is a link to a story on a taken down NIF page, accessible via archive here: http://web.archive.org/web/20070807221918/http://www.nif.org/content.cfm?id=2343&currbody=1
If you go the grantee's page http://arab-education.org/?page_id=663, neither that report, nor any information to back the claim exists.
In fact there is zero evidence of the truth of this matter.
[There is a planned Mosque Law that will prohibit the broadcasting of the Muslim call to prayer, which has been sounding over that land since the beginning of Islam.]
ReplyDeleteThere is already a Mosque Law in Saudi Arabia banning the call to prayer during Ramadan and other holy days because these Mosques with their Allah-be-damned speakers don't let anyone relax:
http://digitaljournal.com/article/329624
Almost all Muslim countries have Mosque noise-pollution Laws. Here's the same law/action from Dubai: http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/mosques-prayer-call-volume-to-be-tested-after-residents-complain
So what are you - stupid or an anti-semite?
[Non-Jews living in the West Bank are denied access to the holy places of Jerusalem, which are only a few kilometres away from them.]
ReplyDeleteUntrue. Blatantly untrue.
As long as they don't pose a threat to security, they're allowed in.
I was with a group of Christian Palestinians on a tour of Israeli holy sites in August 2011. We picked them up in Bethlehem, drove through the checkpoint and did the second half of our trip through the old city.
Then the bus took them back at the end of the tour. They tanked the bus driver, the Russian Orthodox tour guide and left.
[ALSO, for the first time in the history of Islam and the history of Christianity, Palestinian Muslims and Christians in the West Bank and Gaza are denied access to their holy Places of Jerusalem, even on the high holy days of Eid, Christmas, and Easter Sunday.]
ReplyDeleteAs above, a complete and utter fabrication.
[Israel then allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, while unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies creating a reality of green lawns and swimming pools for Jewish settlers and a parched life for Palestinians, whose access to water, according to the World Health Organisation does not meet the minimum requirements for basic human water needs.]
ReplyDeletePartly true. Israelis pay for their oases by laying good piping. The PA either can't afford or doesn't want to replace the old Jordanian piping in the West bank which is now above the Galilee Water Table and thus hard to pump through.
If the PA actually charged a uniform progressive income tax on their residents instead of living on non-existent aid promises from Arab countries, they could afford a better water system.
The 5% of Palestinians in the West bank who live in Areas B and C - the ones occupied by Israel, have new water pipes thanks to the Israeli taxpayers.
The 95% who live in Area A under Palestinian rule have bugger all. They can say thanks to Fateh which for years thought it better to kill an Israeli than provide welfare for a Palestinian.
[Furthermore, that fraction of confiscated Palestinian water is sold to Palestinians at 300% more than what it costs Jewish settlers in the same area. ($1.20/cubic meter vs $.40/cubic meter).]
ReplyDeleteThat's a common slander. The 300% figure is real but not what it relates to.
Overall consumption in the West Bank rose 300%, from 60 mcm to 180 mcm per year between 1967 and 2010. That's where your 300% comes from, not the cost.
The other 300% comes from the fact that Israel has given the West Bank 60-70 mcm per year, 300% of the agreed amount of 28.6 mcm per year, to supplement the West Bank’s own supplies of fresh water.
In terms of how much water costs settlers - well they're connected to Israel's water grid - much like the Palestinians in Areas B and C. The Palestinians in Area A are connected to the Palestinian water grid.
What they're charged is the PA's business.
In fact, we have a direct comparison of costs of water to consumers from the PA and from Israel:
Israel:
1-8CM: 2.07NIS/CM + .12NIS/CM surcharge
9-15CM: 3.10NIS/CM + .12NIS/CM surcharge
16CM: 4.57NIS/CM + .12NIS/CM surcharge
So lets say an average Israeli used 24CM - that's US$27.41 at the 1995 exchange rate.
Palestinian:
1-12CM: $12.66 flat fee
11-20CM: $1/CM
21-40CM: $1.05/CM
41+CM: $1.50/CM
A Palestinian using an average 24CM would pay $26.86, 55 cents less than the Israeli consumer paid for the same amount of water.
But don't listen to me - take it from a PA minister for water and water negotiator with Israel:
“virtually identical with the price in Israel ...”
That's on page 144. Book is here:
http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Water_conflict.html?id=gZSGAAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y
The rest of your stuff is in regards to military orders. Most are wrong, some are correct and all of them fixable if the Palestinians stopped being jerks and realised that there is no way out of this situation they're in without mutually acceptable land swaps.
ReplyDeleteIsrael's willing to give some land up. But it's done this twice without a peace treaty (Lebanon, Gaza) and got rockets in return.
The only times Israel has given up land and got peace in return was with Jordan and Egypt (dismantled settlements in the Sinai and handed it all back including oil which could have super-charged the Israeli economy).
When the Palestinians realise and fix their intransigence they'll have no more military orders and they can then kill each other in any which way they want.
Until then - as shown above, there is no apartheid in Israel and all Israeli citizens have the same rights and opportunities.
So I must ask again - are you stupid or an anti-semite?
One more thing:
ReplyDelete[Since Israel took the West Bank, the Christian population has declined from 20,000 in 1967 to less than 7500 today.]
Palestinian Christians have a higher rate of emigration compared to Palestinian Muslims and the Christian population of the West Bank and Gaza has plunged from about 20 percent after World War II to less than 1.7 percent now.
Funny isn't it? Palestinian Christians are leaving in higher numbers than Muslim Palestinians?
Why is that?
Lets talk about it some more.
During the same period, hundreds of thousands of Christians were leaving other Muslim-ruled countries in the Middle East, Asia, and North Africa. Every one of the more than twenty Muslim states in the Middle East has a declining Christian population.
Clearly the fault of the Jews that every Christian in the Middle East is more likely to leave than a Muslim. Right Monica?
But I am about to make your day better - there is one Arabic-speaking state in the Middle East with a growing Christian population.
That state is Israel with a Christian population that has grown from approximately 34,000 in 1948 to nearly 140,000 in 2012.
So again Monica - are you stupid or an anti-semite?
As this thread has shown, the Israel haters depend entirely on lies. One lie after another. On and on and on ...
ReplyDeleteThere is little point in arguing with people like "Monica". Her racism is settled as much as that of the Ku Klux Klan in the old south. For her ignorance is bliss and propaganda is news. She has not the slightest concern for the "Palestinians", None of them do.
For her this is about something else entirely. There is only one response to people like her. Keep it loaded. You can be certain it will be needed.
In the meantime if you meet people like "Monica" in a public place treat them as they should be treated. Loudly and often. We have been too tolerant of scum like her. That is a large part of the problem.
The BBC gave a platform to Atzmon's propaganda:
ReplyDeletehttp://bbcwatch.org/2013/03/09/bbc-world-service-promotes-gilad-atzmon-again/#comments
Well done, Shirl in Oz and Anon; both of you comprehensively demolished Banerjee's cannards. (Anon, I tip my hat at the research you did on the laws Banerjee misquoted). Geofff's point about types like Banerjee stringing one lie to the next is apposite; it is standard practise for Israel/Jew bashers. And so too is (1)making up laws to dress up their hate propaganda as both learned and supported by rulings and established practice and (2) trying to hide their Jew hatred by squaking that Jews try to deflect justified criticism of nefarious Jewish practices by saying those comments are antisemitic. Cute trick; be antisemitic and when called out scream that Jews are just trying to stifle you.
ReplyDeleteBut I would like to comment on a number of points in Banerjee 2. The Law of Return in Israel is no different to similar laws in say Germany; people have a right to rejoin their people. Some indigenous Arab left Israel in the religion inspired attempted land grab by Arabs in 1948, but a great many stayed and are Israeli citizens. There are no Jews in Jordan, however. Equally if we talk about indigenous populations, why are ancient(!!!) Palestinian Arab refugees defined as those who had resided in the UK's Palestine mandate between June 1946 and May 1948? And really, why ignore that the Brits allowed Arabs to enter their mandate (while they kept Jews in the charnel house of Europe) and if any of those people are indigenous, their homeland is Arabia, not Judea/Samaria.
"Settlements", actually nation building developments, are not illegal except in the mind of creative law spinners. And anyone caused harm by boycotts is entitled to compensation, even it they are Jews.
I cannot weep about Israel tightening up citizenship laws. If an Israeli want to marry out, they can live in Area A under "Palestinian" control. But of course, those oh-so-fiendish Jews changed the law (partly as Anon detailed) when it became apparent that some Arab women married "Palestinians" so the man could more easily commit terror against Israeli Jews. This whinge is on par with the one against the security barrier; murder about a 1000 Jews, maim 10 times as many again and play the victim when an anti-barbarian barrier is built.
Give us a break from the land confiscation nonsense. Much of the land was owned by absentee landlords in Lebanon. Much was neglected and under Ottoman law reverted to the state after 10 years. Much was unusable until Jewish sweat and know-how made it prodictive. At present there are disputes over lands that Jordan took in 1948 and Hussein allocated to his buddies. (Yeah, the same Hussein who didn't allow the Pallies to create their state. But then, the indigenous ancient Palestinians only wanted to reconquer the land west of the green line).
Banerjee, I realise no facts will convince you or other in the "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" brigade. But before you waste your time and ours, do make some effort to deal with reality instead of passing facts through a hatefilled biassed ideological filter. And please don't play the game of calling those who expose your falsehoods as liars.
Haha! It's all so predictable! The usual lies, denials and aggressive accusations to protect privilege based on outright racism. But more and more people are waking up to the reality of Israeli apartheid so don't ignore your conscience any longer... You can't keep slandering those who speak out as simple minded Jew haters forever.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'd rather not stoop to the levels of Anonymous and co, so goodbye!