tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post3131846730038991991..comments2023-11-05T22:12:50.570+11:00Comments on Daphne Anson: David Singer: Paris Buries Palestine and UN Security Council Resolution 2334Daphne Ansonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12297188759548931101noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-6325504917370715762017-01-19T17:29:13.492+11:002017-01-19T17:29:13.492+11:00Offering something to Jordan rather than the PLO c...Offering something to Jordan rather than the PLO could see such offer being accepted by Jordan. If not accepted by Jordan - the Arabs will have missed yet another opportunity that will probably not come round again.David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-44429857917298849882017-01-19T15:24:34.676+11:002017-01-19T15:24:34.676+11:00David,
Ehud Olmert in 2008, made a ridiculously g...David,<br /><br />Ehud Olmert in 2008, made a ridiculously generous and dangerous offer to the PLO and it was rejected.<br /><br />What more can we offer?Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-25092929688167021402017-01-19T13:58:35.302+11:002017-01-19T13:58:35.302+11:00David,
On a separate note, if Abbas refused the ...David, <br /><br />On a separate note, if Abbas refused the insanely generous and dangerous Ehud Olmerts offer in 2008, is there any offer the Arabs would accept? Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-15777296669229357382017-01-19T13:49:01.132+11:002017-01-19T13:49:01.132+11:00David,
With all do respect, 40 years of the 2-sta...David,<br /><br />With all do respect, 40 years of the 2-state solution (from Oslo to the Roadmap to Obama & Kerry, etc.) have only led to:<br /><br />1. Israeli bloodshed<br />2. International condemnation (e.g. most recently UNSC Res. 2334 & John Kerry)<br />3. Anti-Jewish indoctrination of "Arab" Pali<br />4. Decline in Arab "Palestinian" quality of life, education, wealth, infant mortality, etc. <br /><br />By giving more and more concessions and demonstrating our willingness to surrender what is ours (e.g. Gaza, settlement freeze under Obama/Clinton, etc.), we indicate a lack of resolve or give the impression Israel is not our. After all, what other country would surrender its land to which it is rightful owner (and no other people on the planet have as legitimate a claim to their territory do we)? <br /><br />In fact, it is us who perpetuates the conflict. By constantly conceding, WE give the Arabs hope that eventually we will concede all of it. <br /><br />I agree with you and have stated above, that I would like a final settlement (no pun intended) of the conflict to involve Jordan. <br /><br />However, like Caroline Glick, I strongly oppose another independent Iranian sponsored, terrorist state for the PLO, Hamas and whoever else may take over after its creation (e.g. ISIS).<br /><br />Also, we must dictate borders with Jordan (or without it if necessary)as required for our security.<br /><br />Finally, I would ask you how much longer do we negotiate with people whose ultimate objective is not peace but our elimination?<br /><br />How much more of OUR land do you recommend WE concede? Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-23052899803299817292017-01-19T08:27:06.825+11:002017-01-19T08:27:06.825+11:00Your proposal will only exacerbate the conflict - ...Your proposal will only exacerbate the conflict - not end it.<br /><br />All efforts to negotiate an end to the conflict - must be made before the drastic action you suggest is taken as a last resort.<br /><br />Negotiations between Jordan and Israel remains unexplored and first need to be proposed and attempted.David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-62630834001367969282017-01-18T18:18:17.339+11:002017-01-18T18:18:17.339+11:00I agree with her. We should not create a new PLO ...I agree with her. We should not create a new PLO terrorist state, no matter if its calls itself a 'Democracy' or not.<br /><br />As I have been saying, I believe Israel should annex what it wants and give Jordan control of the left over land which would be home to the Arab "Palestinian" terrorists currently living in J&S.Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-21101208741859569082017-01-18T17:05:25.065+11:002017-01-18T17:05:25.065+11:00Because Glick says the 2-state solution is dead. ...Because Glick says the 2-state solution is dead. <br /><br />She doesn't say what you state, which is that Israel should find a "new Arab negotiating partner - either a democratic entity functioning in Areas "A" and "B" and Gaza or Jordan" to create an Arab "Palestinian" terrorist strate on our land.<br /><br />Having read her book, I know she advocates for full annexation and Israeli uniulateral action. Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-6084033337783938092017-01-18T10:31:08.617+11:002017-01-18T10:31:08.617+11:00You agree with Caroline Glick - excellent.
Why do...You agree with Caroline Glick - excellent.<br /><br />Why don't you agree with me when I state:<br />"Because of recent developments including Security Council Resolution 2334 and the Paris Conference any further negotiations with the PLO are dead in the water.<br /><br />That means Israel needs a new Arab negotiating partner - either a democratic entity functioning in Areas "A" and "B" and Gaza or Jordan."<br /><br />Why charge in with your "might is right" approach without giving Israel-Jordan negotiations a try? In my assessment those negotiations could be completed in three months. <br /><br />Drawing a new line in the sand doesn't take too much imagination.David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-17396062735248834312017-01-18T01:01:43.759+11:002017-01-18T01:01:43.759+11:00As Caroline Glick said (and with which I fully agr...As Caroline Glick said (and with which I fully agree):<br /><br />Under trump, "Israel is now obliged to take the lead and abandon the PLO-friendly two-state policy, which blames Israel for Palestinian terrorism, and adopt a strategy that works in its place".Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-33433606439768110622017-01-18T00:42:14.956+11:002017-01-18T00:42:14.956+11:00David,
As a lawyer, surely you understand that to...David,<br /><br />As a lawyer, surely you understand that to compromise is to admit guilt.<br /><br />That is why the PLO will not compromise. It is why negotiations have always been doomed to fail and it is why only force will end the conflict.Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-53314757115350389992017-01-18T00:31:20.331+11:002017-01-18T00:31:20.331+11:00David,
The difference between negotiating with Jo...David,<br /><br />The difference between negotiating with Jordan and Egypt and the PLO is that we brought the former 2 parties to the negotiating table by force. <br /><br />That's why there is a peace agreement between Israel and Egypt / Jordan.<br /> Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-38135935834171350582017-01-17T21:24:55.943+11:002017-01-17T21:24:55.943+11:00However, I suggest no negotiations or minimal nego...However, I suggest no negotiations or minimal negotiations.<br /><br />I suggest unilateral action.<br /><br />Any negotiations with Jordan, etc. are to be ultimatums (e.g. accept this or not).Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-18847414729327258892017-01-17T21:24:11.798+11:002017-01-17T21:24:11.798+11:00There is a big difference negotiating with a non-d...There is a big difference negotiating with a non-democratic Jordan and a non-democratic PLO. Israel has had a signed peace treaty with Jordan since 1994 and an internationally recognised border separating them.<br /><br />The PLO is an organisation whose Charter calls for the elimination of Israel and further declares that everything done since the Balfour Declaration (including the creation of Jordan) is deemed null and void.<br /><br />The PLO has been negotiating with Israel over a period of 23 years and has blown its opportunity to come to some negotiated agreement.<br /><br />Because of recent developments including Security Council Resolution 2334 and the Paris Conference any further negotiations with the PLO are dead in the water.<br /><br />That means Israel needs a new Arab negotiating partner - either a democratic entity functioning in Areas "A" and "B" and Gaza or Jordan. <br />David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-53033343028474477572017-01-17T21:23:33.324+11:002017-01-17T21:23:33.324+11:00We negotiated with Jordan and Egypt before we had ...We negotiated with Jordan and Egypt before we had a Peace Treaty and both were not democracies......Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-908497229237018692017-01-17T21:18:04.329+11:002017-01-17T21:18:04.329+11:00Are you really incapable of working out the answer...Are you really incapable of working out the answer to your inane question?<br /><br />I repeat my answer again:<br /><br />Sorry - but if you cannot understand the difference between negotiating with someone you already have a signed peace agreement with and someone you do not have a signed peace agreement with - then there is no point in continuing any further dialogue with you.David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-52272602333050614092017-01-17T21:16:35.697+11:002017-01-17T21:16:35.697+11:00** You would suggest Israel only deal with democra...** You would suggest Israel only deal with democracies?<br /><br />So, you would have been against the following previous negotiations which led to peace because they were with non-democracies?<br /><br />1. Treaty with Egypt<br />2. Treaty with Jordan<br /><br />You seem to be tied up in circles.... Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-40393637365009423592017-01-17T21:11:36.654+11:002017-01-17T21:11:36.654+11:00I am advocating NO negotiations. Instead, unilate...I am advocating NO negotiations. Instead, unilateral action.<br /><br />However, WE negotiated with Jordan after 3 wars in which they aimed to destroy us and it was not a democracy both then as it isn't now .<br /><br />If we were to negotiate with the PA, how would that be any different than previous negotiations with Jordan which at the time was not a democracy?Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-3534488664738018592017-01-17T17:17:35.155+11:002017-01-17T17:17:35.155+11:00Sorry - but if you cannot understand the differenc...Sorry - but if you cannot understand the difference between negotiating with someone you already have a signed peace agreement with and someone you do not have a signed peace agreement with - then there is no point in continuing any further dialogue with you. David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-80528231200692456042017-01-17T15:26:52.358+11:002017-01-17T15:26:52.358+11:00David,
Your points 1 & 3.
1. "Israel ha...David,<br /><br />Your points 1 & 3.<br /><br />1. "Israel has a lot more to lose if it does not grab any opportunity to negotiate with Jordan and try to end the conflict - precisely the same things as enumerated by you and more".<br /><br />My point 1, refers to negotiations that have occurred with the Palestinian "Arabs" not Jordan.<br /><br />As I said, we should negotiate with Jordan for it to take the terrorists who call themselves Palestinians.<br /><br />However, negotiating with the Arab "Palestinians" has resulted only in Jewish bloodshed and international isolation.<br /><br />3. "There is a big difference in negotiating with a non-democratic Jordan and a non-democratic PLO. Israel has had a signed peace treaty with Jordan since 1994 and an internationally recognised border separating them.<br /><br />The PLO is an organization whose Charter calls for the elimination of Israel and further declares that everything done since the Balfour Declaration (including the creation of Jordan) is deemed null and void".<br /><br />I don't understand your point here. <br /><br />Jordan attacked us 3 times before we made peace and it desecrated Jewish Jerusalem. However, we made peace with it. Prior to making peace with Jordan, it too did not accept our existence.<br /><br />So, I don't understand your comparison of Jordan to the Arab "Palestinians", who today do not accept our existence as Jordan did not prior to the treaty. <br /><br />Your reply actually supports my point, which is that whether or not we negotiate with a "Democracy" or not is irrelevant.<br /><br />What matters is our counterparties willingness to make peace with us.<br /><br />We destroyed Jordan by force, so it had no choice but to make peace.<br /><br />On the other hand, we have failed to inspire the Arab "Palestinians" to make peace b/c we have continued to make too many concessions instead of using force as we did with Jordan. <br />Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-72942487374463104002017-01-17T14:52:58.852+11:002017-01-17T14:52:58.852+11:00Unilateral action, ensure our survival: Yes, I agr...Unilateral action, ensure our survival: Yes, I agree, Israel should take a bit more initiative.borhanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12498562348810596899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-34652808081658699722017-01-17T14:33:43.616+11:002017-01-17T14:33:43.616+11:00[RE-POST / UPDATE]
Borthani,
I am very familiar...[RE-POST / UPDATE] <br /><br />Borthani,<br /><br />I am very familiar with Israel's founding documents which you so easily regurgitate while conflating the protection of minority rights with Democracy or majority rule.<br /><br />For example, a constitutional monarchy can via a constitution protect minority rights in the same manner as does the USA, which is a modern Republic. <br /><br />I am advocating for a state whose essence is to be an expression of Jewish nationhood on its land, which has chosen to accomplish this through some form of democracy (e.g. parliamentary). <br /><br />As such, the expressions of national identity that are essential to a Jewish state, such as the flag, national anthem, holidays, right of return for Jews, etc. do not affect the participation of minorities in the democratic process nor do they violate any basic human rights. <br /><br />However, you ignore my main point. Whatever the form of government, it must subordinate the universalist tenancies which have become part of the Jewish DNA for particularism (recently a good article on this in Israpunditl). Israel must seek to protect itself, its Jewish character and its Jewish population above all else.<br /><br />That implies maintaining secure and defensible borders which have been unobtainable via negotiation for nearly 100 years. <br /><br />Thus, the time has come to act unilaterally to ensure our survival. Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-86579230974340384582017-01-17T14:19:25.654+11:002017-01-17T14:19:25.654+11:00In response to your comments - using your numbered...In response to your comments - using your numbered paragraphs:<br /><br />1. Israel has a lot more to lose if it does not grab any opportunity to negotiate with Jordan and try to end the conflict - precisely the same things as enumerated by you and more.<br /><br />2. Maybe those negotiations will fail. If the opportunity ever arose then it would be folly for Israel to reject it.<br /><br />3. There is a big difference negotiating with a non-democratic Jordan and a non-democratic PLO. Israel has had a signed peace treaty with Jordan since 1994 and an internationally recognised border separating them.<br /><br />The PLO is an organisation whose Charter calls for the elimination of Israel and further declares that everything done since the Balfour Declaration (including the creation of Jordan) is deemed null and void.<br /><br />The PLO has been negotiating with Israel over a period of 23 years and has blown its opportunity to come to some negotiated agreement.<br /><br />Because of recent developments including Security Council Resolution 2334 and the Paris Conference any further negotiations with the PLO are dead in the water.<br /><br />That means Israel needs a new Arab negotiating partner - either a democratic entity functioning in Araes "A" and "B" and Gaza or Jordan. <br /><br />How much of our ancestral homeland is retained in any negotiations with Jordan will be determined by the negotiating teams - not you or I.<br /><br /> David Singer -https://www.blogger.com/profile/18281274914728257734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-5633759415747003392017-01-17T13:23:00.186+11:002017-01-17T13:23:00.186+11:00Borhani,
I am very familiar with Israel's fou...Borhani,<br /><br />I am very familiar with Israel's founding documents that you so easily regurgitate to attempt to make a point that doesn't exist.<br /><br />You are conflating the protection of minority rights with Democracy or majority rule. <br /><br />For example, a constitutional monarchy can protect minority rights through a constitution in the same manner as does the USA, which is a modern republic. <br /><br />Specifically, a Jewish state does not negatively affect the rights of its minority citizens to participate in the democratic process.<br /><br />Expressions of Jewish national identity that are essential to a Jewish state, such as the flag, national anthem, holidays, right of return etc., do not affect the ability of minorities to participate in the political process nor does it affect their minority rights.<br /><br />It is you who is losing sight of the point. It doesn't matter if the PA is 'Democratic', however you may define it. <br /><br />What is important is our security and thus where Israel draws its borders, irrespective of the international community. Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-11215053666600755422017-01-17T12:33:05.507+11:002017-01-17T12:33:05.507+11:00* In my fist response above, I left out other thin...* In my fist response above, I left out other things we have to lose from more failed negotiations, including international de-legitimization, BDS, etc....Noah Fnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-971541537715440752.post-58027517804519169822017-01-17T12:25:00.781+11:002017-01-17T12:25:00.781+11:00David.
In response to various parts of your reply...David.<br /><br />In response to various parts of your reply:<br /><br />1. "What have the Jews and Arabs and the the world got to lose if I am wrong?"<br /><br />WE have a lot to lose!<br /><br />We had 2 major Intifada, hundreds of terrorist attacks, daily rock throwing, etc. as a result of Oslo, and numerous Gaza wars as a result of our concession, both of which were a failed attempts to negotiate with people who will NEVER accept our presence in Israel, at least not unless we are dhimmy's to them.<br /><br /><br />2. "Negotiating with such an entity might or might not resolve the conflict."<br /><br />It will NOT. It has been long enough to understand that they will never end the conflict through negotiations. It will only be ended through strength, not conceding land.<br /><br />How much longer should we try? How many more concessions should we make?<br /><br />3. "Israel should now not fall into the trap of negotiating with any entity less than one already democratically elected and functioning in Areas “A” and “B” of the West Bank and Gaza – nor rely on any promises of democracy emerging there in the future."<br /><br />AND<br /><br />"My view is that Jordan and Israel in direct negotiations can achieve that objective in a matter of months".<br /><br />On the one hand, you say no negotiation with non-democratic entity regarding Areas A&B (I assume you are referring to the Pali), but then you say we should negotiate A&B w/ Jordan, which is a Kingdom and is NOT democratic. <br /><br />Israel should determine its borders as it deems necessary for security andother considerations. However, we must keep most of our ancestral homeland in J&S.<br /><br />We should give Jordan minimally enough to get it to agree to keep these terrorists.Noah Fnoreply@blogger.com